This take is annoying.
But it's also not entirely @gruber's fault because the media doesn't really talk about the Fediverse, and when they do, it's as a synonym for "Mastodon".
How would @gruber know about the massive development efforts to build more user-friendly alternatives to Mastodon?
No one in the media talks about the growth of *key apps, and how they're now the #2 most used Fediverse platform.
That story isn't being told.
@atomicpoet @fediversenews There's definitely something to what @gruber is saying. With manual account approval on mastodon.social and it being pushed as the default, I'd love to see the abandonment rate... Perhaps it's different when signing up through a phone? But getting someone all excited about trying a new social network is hard enough. Now they have to retain that excitement for an unknown amount of time, and then care enough to engage at some later date... Not much fun...
@atomicpoet totally agree, tho that is also where I can see where @gruber is coming from - the "simple" thing. Even some of my more technical friends struggled to understand how to get started with the Fediverse, but they could figure out how sign up to Mastodon. Hopefully collectively we can come up with some appropriate verbiage - or perhaps it's just a matter of time. If you dropped the word 'tweet' into a casual conversation even 10 years ago people would look at you funny.
@gr0k @atomicpoet @gruber Bluesky only seems simpler just now as there’s only one app and one server. The whole reason for developing AT was it would be federated, but “better” than ActivityPub by allowing truly nomadic user accounts. Of course the nomadic accounts don’t exist, so maybe they’ll never enable federation and just be a centralised Twitter replacement. Then their absence of actual moderation will come to bite them.
@MetalSamurai @atomicpoet @gruber for sure. I am no fan of bluesky. Doesn't change the fact it's easier to onboard when you reduce the decisions a user has to make.
@gr0k @MetalSamurai @atomicpoet @gruber
Not a big reveal. But yeah, it would be so convenient and simple if decentralized servers were all centralized, right? Oh, wait…
@shoq @MetalSamurai @atomicpoet @gruber that's why we're here, and others are elsewhere. I'd like to say it's just 'cause we've been 'round the block, but many others have by now. Who was it who said give me convenience or give me death? We've taken a different approach. But people will be people.
@gr0k @shoq @atomicpoet @gruber I hope eventually knowledge about the Fediverse will spread, so there will be more general awareness that it’s one big social network, but you can choose your preferred on ramp. Like picking a set top box that supports your preferred streaming services, or having a favourite coffee shop (they all sell coffee, but the presentation and vibe is different).
@MetalSamurai @gr0k @shoq @atomicpoet That’s the path to a lowest common denominator experience for everyone.
@gruber @MetalSamurai @gr0k @shoq @atomicpoet Having a favorite coffee shop is the path to “the lowest common denominator”? Did I mis-read this?
@gruber @gr0k @shoq @atomicpoet It’s the exact opposite. If you prefer a Facebook experience, use Friendica, but you can stay in touch with all your Mastodon friends. If you want a playful interface with smart pattern matched timelines, use Calckey and still stay in touch with all your Mastodon friends. If you want to try running your own instance on minimal hardware, use Akkoma or GoToSocial and still stay in touch with …
@gruber @gr0k @shoq @atomicpoet For every one of those (and more - there’s Pixelfed, Lemmy, /kbin etc) things will look and feel different. Sometimes very different. You get to choose the one you prefer. But it’s all the same network so you can follow people on the other platforms and they can follow you.
BlueSky’s federation dream seems to be a small number of huge indexers and aggregators. That’s going to be lowest common denominator.
@gruber @MetalSamurai @gr0k @shoq @atomicpoet
Is it not also the path to innovation, diversity, and customer experience excellence?
@gruber @MetalSamurai @gr0k @shoq John, I don’t think AT protocol will be less “common denominator” than ActivityPub. There will be competitive apps with Bluesky. If you care about an open web, you should want that.
Looks like @gruber ‘s position is predicated on design, #UI, and onboarding. I have no invite for bluesky so it is clearly not an inclusive media, or open to all and inviting, and Gruber clearly does not care about inclusivity.
But even on the grounds of design, UI, ease of onboarding, there are star examples that incorporate #ActivityPub protocol and in #Fediverse. I am partial to #Calckey and calckey.social, and Calckey does provide a good example. Perhaps the design gurus and social media pundits need to browse a little more of the Fediverse before their pronouncements.
@arinbasu1 @atomicpoet @gruber @shoq @MetalSamurai @gr0k Come on, that point about inclusivity totally misconstrues what he actually said. You made that up based on a presumption because Bluesky currently requires invites.
I mean, I get why people want Fediverse tech to win, and I do too, but putting words in other people's mouths is such a miss and will wither goodwill over time.
I’ll let that comment pass, as @gruber already explained that he was predicting about the popularity, and did not consider anything else, which is fair.
I do not believe that if a service in public domain is closed to some people and open to others, that kind of a service is said to be inclusive of everyone. So when one assesses such a service, I presumed all aspects were considered, but looks like this was not the case.
@atomicpoet @MetalSamurai @gr0k @shoq I’m not talking about what I want in this thread. I’m observing and predicting what is going to happen.
@gruber @atomicpoet @MetalSamurai @gr0k @shoq I think you have a point towards the need for making things easier for users.
But eventually, Linux won on the infrastructure side, and for many organizations is a very usable alternative.
If Bluesky is a lightning in a pan, just a proof of concept as Jack Dorsey has recognized, the experience for the federation will still need to be built… and the infrastructure could be anything if it is good enough.
@gruber @atomicpoet @MetalSamurai @gr0k @shoq maybe a better analogy is to think of Mac OS X versus traditional Mac OS. There was a lot of work on the infrastructure, and at some point people just wanted to ship Rhapsody. Then Mac OS X evolved out of that. But the properties that made Mac OS X a technological success had to be combined with the things that made a Mac a Mac.
Probably what you’re arguing is for that last part…
@gruber @MetalSamurai @gr0k @shoq @atomicpoet that is eminently not true, as you can see from the different experiences being built atop ActivityPub, or the Mastodon API itself.
I have my CalcKey account and my PixelFed account both in Ivory, but I can also use them from their own apps (which, specially for CalcKey, is better). And I can interact with you from any of them!
We need to follow and boost journalists so that they have a positive experience in the #Fediverse, tell their colleagues, and write about it. They are excellent #multipliers for marketing.
A German saying goes, "Hope dies last."
Actions speak louder than words:
@gr0k But this is what I'm saying. Perhaps it's wrong to call Mastodon *the* social network. It is server software for the social network, which is the Fediverse.
It's only a social network in the same sense that nginx is the Internet.